Thursday, June 04, 2009

A conversation at VIN...

...regarding late term abortion. The discussion, of course, springs from the recent killing of Dr. Tiller, the abortionist shot at his "church" by a religious person taking God's law into their own hands.

VIN New York
Killing Doctors Who Perform Abortions: A Jewish Perspective
Published on: Jun 01, 2009 at 03:55 PM

Jun 02, 2009 at 01:37 PM Ahavah Says:
There is absolutely no medical need for anyone, ever, to have a late term abortion. Any person who needs labor induced due to medical need can go to ANY ob-gyn in the country and have an induced pre-term delivery. The difference is that the ob-gyn will not purposefully kill the child during the process, though the child may die anyway if it is too premature or too sick to survive. It's simply a LIE to say a late term abortion is ever "necessary." An abortion is only necessary if you INTEND to end up with a dead baby.

Jun 02, 2009 at 02:29 PM Milhouse Says:
Reply to #94 Show Quote
That goes too far. There are cases where abortion is necessary in order to save the mother's life. In those cases the baby is directly endangering the mother, and so he is a rodef, in exactly the same way that this "doctor" was endangering babies' lives. And therefore killing the baby is justified, for the exact same reason that killing this "doctor" was justified.

Yesterday at 06:19 PM Ahavah Says:
Reply to #100 Show Quote
No, there are cases where the baby needs to be delivered early to save the mother's life, and this can be done by induced labour or by c-section. There is NO medical condition that REQUIRES you to kill the baby. I defy you to name even one. Doctors have testified before congress that there is no reason to purposefully kill the baby in these circumstances - one of the largest late-term abortionists of the 80s and 90s even admitted this before congress. The testimony is public record and was widely reported. There is no medical reason in these cases to kill the child, and plenty of emergency pre-term c-sections and deliveries are made every day to babies as young as 24 weeks, who often survive with few or no lingering medical problems. The only difference is that those mothers, even though in danger, wanted their babies saved. The ones who go to abortionists instead of ob-gyns want their babies dead. That is the only difference. These are facts. A late term abortion has no other purpose than to kill the child - it's murder, plain and simple.

Today at 12:41 AM Milhouse Says:
Reply to #121 Show Quote
I am not a doctor, so I don't know. But from what I've read, it seems that few people claim that NO such cases exist; the most I've seen is that they are very few and rare. Maybe Charlie Hall can enlighten us on whether such cases actually exist.
Is it possible for an ectopic pregnancy to last long enough to be called "late term"? If so, that would be an example. But I don't suppose it is possible.
In any case, it's irrelevant to the case of Tiller, because women whose life was in danger didn't need to go to him; they could get treated anywhere. The women who went to him were the ones whom almost nobody else will agree to abort, either because they're afraid of pro-life violence, or because although they're abortionists even they have a line they won't cross.

Ahavah says:
Reply to #122 Show Quote
An ectopic pregnancy will burst the fallopian tubes and cause dangerous bleeding in as little as four weeks of pregnancy - it is not possible for a fetus to grow much more than that in a tube that is maybe 1/4" wide at best, so you're correct, there's no such thing as a "late term" ectopic pregnancy. In rare instances, a baby can grow outside the womb altogether, but there are documented cases where these have gone full term and been delivered healthy. But if they do become a problem, an abortion won't help, since the child isn't in the womb to be aborted. The woman has to actually have surgery on her abdomen to remove the fetus attached somewhere in her abdominal cavity outside the womb. In that case, there would be little way to save the child's life, since there's no way to transplant a placenta into the womb. Once you detach it from whatever it's attached to, the child suffocates in a few minutes. But again, an abortionist wouldn't be doing this - a certified internal surgeon assisted by an ob-gyn would have to do it. The reason most abortionists won't kill viable babies is because it is morally disgusting and medically reprehensible and violates their Hippocratic oath to "do no harm" to a living being. As I said, a mother with a dangerous pregnancy can go to ANY hospital or ob-gyn and have a pre-term c-section or delivery, and they will save her life and try their best to save the baby's life, too. The ONLY reason to go to an abortionist is if you INTEND to have your baby murdered.

Fortunately, God will forgive those who repent from their sins, even from an abortion. But God will not forgive those who refuse to repent, who try and justify their sins, and who try and pass off the modern cult of selfishness as something acceptable in the Torah. Tiller was a murderer and will no doubt have fun roasting in hell or the lake of fire or get to be aborted himself in a future life, a few tens of thousands of times, if Karma is correct - take your pick.

The debate at VIN was whether it was correct to kill someone who wasn't actually in the act of trying to murder someone vs those who think there was no reason to kill him at all, because there's nothing wrong with killing babies in the first place.

To this the obvious question presents itself: if you were a sniper in Nazi Germany, and Dr. Mengele strolled out for a cigarette in between his horrific experiments on fellow Jews (including forced abortions on unwilling mothers), would you take the shot?

How would you justify not taking it?

To the religious right, it's the exact same situation. What Mengele was doing wasn't illegal in Nazi Germany. Does that relieve the sniper of his duty to protect those in danger?

I'm thinking not. As it says, "You shall not stand by and let innocent blood be shed." But of course, liberals believe they will never come to the day when they have to stand before the Judge of All Mankind and have themselves accused.

There's no doubt, however, the guilty party who shot Dr. Tiller will stand trial and be found guilty in court. I don't have a problem with that, either. He knew that would be the likely outcome when he made his decision to shoot. Most likely he will get the death penalty. After that, whether or not he's a nutcase or a martyr is up to God to decide. The Liberals have no say at that point.

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